By Will Shade

Will Shade: You ready? Jim McCarty: Yeah. I got your e-mail a few days ago. I thought it was funny, that quote with Iggy Pop. WS: I thought you would enjoy it. Let’s dive right in. Which albums by other groups were favorites among The Yardbirds during the ’66-’68 period? Which psychedelic albums in particular? JM: We’d take a sort of mobile record player around with us and play things, Keith and I. A couple of the things were The Mothers of Invention’s first two albums, FREAK OUT and WE’RE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY. We used to like those because they were sort of silly. REVOLVER was another one. Also Keith and I quite liked that EAST-WEST by Paul Butterfield. Another thing was that Steve Miller thing, "Songs For Our Ancestors." You know, with all the tugboats on it. That was a good track. And then there was some of that psychedelic classical music like John Cage. Really weird stuff. Maybe Stockhausen. CD: We were listening to The Beatles for sure. We were still listening to the blues, Paul Butterfield and people like that. We were listening to what other British bands of the day were up to. You know, any of our contemporaries- The Beach Boys, Beatles again. As a band, we were listening to these other groups, but we working so much that we were introverted into our own world. Hendrix of course came roaring into the scene around then. He was very exciting and guitar-oriented like we were. He gave us impetus to continue down the road we had already been following. By that time we had Jimmy so it was getting a lot more strange from what we had been doing a few years earlier. We were aware of the music around us, but as I said we were very self-contained. We had our heads down, on our own trail. WS: Of course you have thirty years hindsight, but at the time were you really aware that things began to change musically? Meaning, it had been more beat oriented or R & B . . . JM: Definitely. I think we always wanted to get out of that heavy 12 bar format. Make it different while keeping the basis of that blues feel, but make it more interesting. That’s why we did the sort of things we did. Try to build up some excitement. When Jeff came into the band he was a lot more the way we wanted to go. Eric was very blues purist. At the time anyway. Jeff wasn’t like that. He had more variety about him. He played all sorts of weird sounds, electronic sounds that seemed to fit in. The first time we went to L.A. there were all these weird hippies appearing at our gigs. They thought we were all tripping on acid. But it was just our music. We hadn’t done drugs yet. We were really straight still. WS: The States really took to you. Of course, when you started off in Britain, you had a rabid fan base when you were playing at the Crawdaddy and the Marquee. But later on it seems like the English kind of ignored you, whereas you went over really well in America. JM: That’s true. It’s a bit strange. The British market seemed to revolve around the hit single. It was very frustrating. You had to be thinking of the next single all the time. It was like being in a small  box. The things we liked to do, playing live, the Americans really appreciated, especially the innovative things we did on stage. CD: In retrospect, it’s a bit odd. I suppose it’s very much of an English thing. The English kind of love you before you’ve broken, as it were. I think the thing in America was we got put on some very long tours. The scope was greater. The kids were much more into the type of music we were making, the embryo garage thing. The English tend to forget you if you leave the shore for too long. WS: Which British groups from that era, particularly ’66, were good live acts? And did any of them influence you? JM: The Animals and The Who, I thought, were very good live. We played with The Beatles a few times. They were okay live, but they basically just played their songs and ran off stage. You couldn’t hear them at all because of the screaming. WS: How about American groups? JM: The Lovin’ Spoonful were very good live. And so was The Butterfield Blues Band. I saw them with Mike Bloomfield in ’66, around the EAST-WEST album. They were different than us, a little more blues purist, although the song "East-West" was similar to our psychedelic approach. They were very good live. We saw them down in one of the Sunset Strip clubs. Maybe The Trip. I saw them later when I was with Renaissance. They had a huge horn section and the feel was quite different. They were a very good band with Mike Bloomfield and Elvin Bishop, though. WS: What do you think were some of the major differences between the British and American bands? JM: The British bands had a lot more stage presence. The American bands always seemed to be a bit more shy. We seemed to be a bit more sincere somehow. Not every band, of course. I didn’t see every band. But the American bands seemed to be a bit more lame. I don’t want to tread on your toes here (laughs). WS: Don’t worry. I prefer British rock n roll. JM: You know like Paul Revere & The Raiders and those kinds of bands. Of course, we had some lightweight stuff like Freddie & The Dreamers and some of that Merseybeat stuff. There just didn’t seem to be any kind of meaty American band at that time, except for Butterfield. And there were all those bands like The Electric Prunes and The Chain Reaction, who seemed to be doing what we were doing. When I hear these accounts of when we first came over with Beck and we were playing these gigs, people expected some kind of pop band and we were playing this freaky off-the-wall stuff that apparently blew people’s minds. It seems that we inspired a lot of people to try and play in our style. WS: Do you think any of the live recordings with Beck, like the BBC stuff and a few bootlegs, are actually representative of that line-up’s live sound? JM: The BBC took all the excitement out of it. That’s what they were famous for, really. There’s probably no live recordings with Jeff that come close. I think the singles we recorded in the States with Jeff, like "Mister, You’re A Better Man Than I," "Shapes Of Things" and "Train Kept A-Rolling," were closer to our potential. We never got a live recording as such. It was funny with Jeff. It was either hit or miss. If it was a good night, it would be great. But that might be only one out of five gigs. It wasn’t really uniform. WS: What live show stands out in retrospect? What did you think about playing with Beck and Page together? JM: There were a few shows that stood out as being really good. In the Beck-era we did a small residency on Sunset strip in Hollywood, a club called the Hullabaloo I believe. I remember a great atmosphere and playing really well! Another show that stands out was with Jeff and Jimmy at Cardiff on The Stones tour when the crowd just wouldn't stop screaming for an encore right before The Stones were due on! A show that happened like this was pretty rare with that line-up! WS: Do you remember hearing The Beatles song "Tomorrow Never Knows"? JM: Yeah, yeah. It was great. I remember hearing it in L.A. We did a gig over in Catalina Island. All these freaks came along and we played that album. We were at somebody’s house and we played that album. I thought it was great. WS: Were you experimenting with illicit substances at this point? JM: Yeah, it came in a little bit slowly. We probably had a smoke for that particular song! It would have fit, wouldn’t it? (laughs) It was a great track. It was a great album actually. WS: Did any of you play while tripping on acid? JM: I believe I did, but not very often! At the Fillmore we met up with Dr. Owsley who would give you handfuls of strange tablets that he had manufactured in his laboratory! WS: When was your first acid trip? Care to share the experience? JM: I’m afraid acid didn't do me much good. I had to duck out of a few gigs while suffering from the after-effects. WS: Chris, were you clean? CD: As far as I know, Jimmy Page and I were completely clean at the time. I hadn’t even drunk if I remember correctly. I didn’t drink, smoke or take drugs. WS: Did it bother you that Jim and Keith were doing drugs? CD: What can I say? Everybody around us was doing drugs. It was almost expected. I felt for Keith. He was never a healthy person. With the traveling and playing it affected one’s health, especially mental health. So I felt concern as a friend. And I suppose you can say it was another reason why the band was no longer cohesive. I think they were kind of under the illusion that drugs can give you. Not necessarily the reality. I can’t speak for Jimmy, but I seem to remember that he and I were straight and the other two weren’t. WS: Now, Keith and Jim spent a lot of time together. Were you hanging out with Jimmy or were you doing your own thing like taking photos? CD: I suppose I did retreat into that a great deal actually, Will, well spotted. I hung out with Jimmy to a degree traveling. I was always close to Jim. And at times I was close to Keith. But there was some diametrically opposed things going on. If you’re not doing drugs, it’s hard to hang out with people who are doing drugs. It’s not that you don’t want to be with them, but people who do drugs want to be with people who do drugs as well. I had my photography and other creative pursuits. And yes, I did immerse myself in that. WS: Where and/or when did The Velvet Underground’s "I’m Waiting For The Man" enter your set list? JM: We did a few gigs with them in Detroit. We played a big festival in Detroit for a few days and they played it, too. We heard it and thought, "This is quite a good song, isn’t it?" We probably did it because we were low on ideas and were looking around for material. We played it with the Jimmy line-up, but I think Jeff was still in the band when we played with The Velvet Underground (ed. note: Beck had already left the band). At some point we got their album. CD: I think that was in Detroit. We played with them there. I don’t think we did it with Jeff in the band, though. Why we did it? We did that very occasionally, when odd bits of material by other artists showed up in our set. That actually might have been Jimmy who wanted to do it. Good call on his part. WS: Are these apocryphal stories as recounted in the book UPTIGHT about Jeff Beck intimidating The Velvets with a pistol true? And about him shooting up Sun Studios? JM: Never heard that. Don’t know if Jeff had a pistol . . . I don’t know maybe he did! (laughs) And the Sun Studios story isn’t true. Going back to The Underground, though, I remember coming out of the hotel one day and there was Andy Warhol in the limo. And the guy who was sort of his tour manager said "do you want to come along with Andy to the gig?" So we sat there and Andy didn’t speak. "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" had just been released. And the guy says, "Andy likes your new single." (laughs) It was weird! Andy was sitting right there and this guy was speaking for him, which was really strange. CD: I find that so bizarre. I don’t know where that comes from. Jeff with a firearm, that’s so ridiculous. He’s never been into guns. He’s into cars! That’s rubbish. As for Sun Studios, we were all over-powered with the legend of rock n roll. The idea of Jeff shooting up Sam Phillips’ studio is absolute nonsense. The Yardbirds weren’t a violent band in any shape or form. In fact, we avoided conflict most of the time. We got through nearly all of our gigs unscathed, even in the Deep South. We weren’t crazy looking if you look at photos from that time. But we must have been strange looking to America in the ’60s, especially in the South. Even in our own country, where there’s some pretty tough areas, I think there was only one time that we needed to get the local authorities to help assist us from a venue because of some aggravation. But we never really ran into much trouble. I remember one story about The Animals when they played in Montgomery, Alabama or someplace like that. They had a black road manager. They put him in a cupboard in a Holiday Inn, not even a proper suite. After the concert, everybody was hot and they went for a swim, including this guy. The next day they fumigated the pool, drained it and everything. But the only sort of controversy I can remember us experiencing is being refused entrance to Disney Land because our hair was too long! WS: And you guys are playing there in the year 2001! CD: A bit ironic, isn’t it? But we got along well with the American people. We had the ability to swing with it. We just wanted to play the music. There was the Vietnam War and other problems. People thought we were a bit freakish, but not really dangerous. We had to take those domestic flights and run the gamut of curiosity. We were something different than what they considered normal. We were insulted and ridiculed by the straight business type of American. But it didn’t lead to any major problems. We were in a bit of a bubble. We had each other. WS: When "Happenings" came out, it peaked at 30 in the States. JM: It was a bit of a disaster, wasn’t it? WS: In retrospect, for something that revolutionary to go Top 40 is pretty amazing. JM: Yeah, that’s true. WS: Did that knock the wind out of your sails? Prior to that, you’d been charting in the Top 20 at least. JM: Definitely. Suddenly, there was this calamity. We thought it was a decent song. WS: So did Hendrix. He used one its lead lines on a song of his later. JM: Oh, did he? He uses one of the guitars, does he? I knew he liked Jeff’s guitar playing. I always said it was a good song. It came in quite high and then it didn’t do anything. I suppose it was a bit of a blow. That was the start of the end of the beginning . . . or the beginning of the end! Then we started doing all those weird singles that were out of character. WS: "Happenings" definitely had John Paul Jones on bass? JM: Yes. WS: Which Yardbirds recordings are you most happy with in retrospect? How do you like "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" and "Think About It"? JM: I always liked "Shapes Of Things" best, but "Happenings" is a great track. WS: Tell me about the songwriting process within the band during ’66-’68. JM: With "Happenings," Keith and I got the idea together, the tune and the chords and the words. Then Jimmy put that riff into it and then Jeff did that weird solo. So, we built up the arrangement all together. WS: The lyrics were you and Keith. Was that true most of the time? JM: Yeah, I guess so. "Shapes Of Things" was more Paul and Keith. I’d sort of put in my three pence. "Over, Under" was me and Keith. WS: What is "Happenings" about? JM: We were trying to do a song about reincarnation. It’s about people that we’d see that we knew from somewhere else before. I think it was a bit beyond the grasp of the regular public. (recites the lyrics) "Walking in the room I see/things that mean a lot to me. " WS: What influenced that? JM: Keith and I had always been interested in that sort of thing. We started out reading about flying saucers and then moved on to Atlantis and that sort of stuff. Reincarnation just seemed a normal thing to write about. WS: A bit too weighty for a pop song in ’66 perhaps. Or 2001 for that matter! JM: Yes. (laughs) WS: As Jeff left the band, you began to bring in more outside material. As far as the original stuff you were writing, how much was Jimmy contributing? For example, tell me about the songwriting for "Think About It." JM: That was similar to "Happenings." Jimmy was involved in it. I don’t remember who actually created the tune. The three of us might have done that together. "Tinker, Tailor" was something I did with Jimmy. Keith wasn’t really involved. "Glimpses" was a bit "Still I’m Sad"-ish. WS: Chris, what’s your take on the song-writing process around that time? CD: It was shame at the time with this new set-up, because the four-piece was quite a dynamic band, that we fell down on the songwriting. Being on the road so much affected us negatively. We had ideas that never came to fruition. And by that time Jim and Keith were on a different tact. WS: The acoustic thing. CD: Yes, I’m sure they would agree with that. Whereas Jimmy and I were more heavy. There was a bit of conflict that screwed the cohesiveness up a bit. We didn’t really get much opportunity to get in the studio anyway. WS: Of the opportunities you did have, what about “Think About It” for example. CD: Oh, that’s a great song. I like that a lot. That’s exactly the direction I wanted it to go. You know, the four-piece, the bass and guitar riffing together and the tightness. And that’s where I think it was going. I don’t think Jim and Keith were particularly into that thing. But certainly Jimmy and I were. It was getting too late by then, but yes that’s the direction it would have gone. WS: Speaking of which, where did you stand in relation to the music itself, not personal loyalties or that sort of thing. CD: It’s an interesting question. Obviously, Jim, Keith and I originated the band. We went back a long way. As a person I would like not to say that I was in anybody’s particular camp. But as a player, at the time, with the band and Jimmy it seemed a very natural route for the band to go in that format. Obviously, as a part of the rhythm section it helps to keep that cohesiveness going both onstage and off. But I would have to say when you feel something is right for the players you have, that’s what I thought was right. On the other hand, “Dazed And Confused” also had a delicacy in there as well. Our entire approach could have been handled in the same fashion. With the delicacy and eclecticism that The Yardbirds had always had. We had a natural ensemble with Jimmy that worked better in a heavier approach. Not that this would have precluded Jim and Keith’s more acoustic thing. But when something has a natural bend, you tend to go with it. I felt frustrated that we could have gone further. I got over it pretty quick. But there were moments I felt that we had something natural here and what a shame that we can’t at least take it to a point . . . we never took it to the full potential. WS: Once again, myth says that when you played live "Glimpses" would involve a light show and movies being projected behind the band. True? JM: We tried to get those things together, but we never got around to it. I remember that we had this incense burner, one of those metal things you carry around, that Keith would swing. And we’d have candles. We didn’t actually have a light show. Some of these gigs we played had light shows anyway. So we didn’t have to worry about carrying them around. WS: Did you notice a difference in the British and American light shows? JM: I can’t really remember. There was a club called UFO in London that had a light show. I remember going to the Fillmore to see the Airplane. It was the woman before Grace Slick (ed. note: Signe Anderson). I thought, "Oh, this is great." It was the first light show I’d ever seen. All this sort of moving things, dancing around, this great big blob and all these films going. WS: Speaking of the UFO, you saw Syd Barrett’s Pink Floyd, right? JM: It was at Hammersmith Olympia. Hendrix was on as well. It was a bit of a flip out! I can’t remember. We were probably tripping out! (laughs) I actually bought the single "See Emily Play!" WS: What do you consider the band’s best psychedelic song? JM: It would have to be "Happenings." WS: Chris, what do you think were the best Yardbirds songs from that era? CD: By that time we had probably become, because it was a four-piece, a slightly heavier band than the preceding versions. We did quite a lot of different arrangements of material. But I would still say “Shapes Of Things” along with “Dazed And Confused” and “Happenings Ten Years Time Ago.” WS: I think your best bass playing is on “Dazed And Confused.” Speaking of which, how long did it take you to switch from rhythm guitar to bass. CD: About half an hour actually. (laughs) When Jeff left, we had commitments. I had to go on the bass straight away. But I loved the bass. All that energy. WS: What’s your favorite psychedelic song by another band? JM: "Tomorrow Never Knows" would have to be one of the greats, wouldn’t it? And some of that Donovan stuff. "Season Of The Witch" and "Sunshine Superman." It’s not outright psychedelic, but it’s kind of trippy. That whole album really. Jimmy’s guitar work (ed. note: Page played on many of Donovan’s sessions) on that album is really good. WS: How did your studio recordings differ from your live performance during the later years? Like on LAST RAVE-UP IN L.A., you were really stretching things out. Probably just to keep yourselves from getting bored. JM: I think we got to the point that we lost the creative impetus about a year before we split up. We were working so hard and we’d been doing it for so long, we didn’t really have the time and space to create good things. Listening to the stuff now, like CUMULAR LIMIT, it doesn’t sound too bad. But at the time it felt like it was throwaway material. We were trying too hard to get another "Shapes Of Things" or a hit. It’s a bit difficult to get good songs together. So, we’d go around to "Smokestack Lightning" again and think of a new way of doing it. WS: It seems like you were still pretty dynamic on stage, though. JM: Yes, we could be. We always really went for it. We always tried to create an excitement. WS: Chris, in a previous interview with me, you told me, and I quote, "Live as a four-piece, when Jimmy was playing guitar, I think those were some of our best shows.” CD: Yes, I still back that. I quite liked it as a four piece. It was a strong band as a four piece. It was moving in interesting directions. WS: It seems that it was a little more consistent live at least. CD: Yes. WS: Maybe you didn’t catch your potential in the studio, but you certainly could still storm on stage. CD: Live was great, I would agree with you. The studio was our problem at that time. Part of that was because we didn’t have Paul (Samwell-Smith) anymore. Paul was always a very cohesive factor in the studio. We weren’t really in control of our destiny in the studio, which was a great shame. The band should have come off the road and spent more time in the studio. Mickie (Most) was assigned to us. He was the designated hit maker and did produce some wonderful stuff. But he wasn’t right for us. It was the wrong marriage. WS: What drums were you using around this time, Jim? JM: I played Ludwig. Later I played a Premier. I got a concession. But I never thought the Premiers were as good as Ludwig. WS: You probably weren’t even miking the bass drum when you played live then, were you? JM: No. I don’t think we miked anything except for  the voice. WS: What were you playing, Chris? CD: There were a lot of guitars, but usually a 335 (Gibson). With amplifiers it was a mixed bag, especially on those American tours. We did a sponsorship for a while with Jordan amps. Unfortunately, we had a bit of a problem with them. They were all transistor and we blew them up all the time. They were completely wrong for us. And then we got a deal with Fender. That was probably the best equipment we had. I remember me and Jimmy got invited to the Fender factory and literally chose what we wanted. They were really good. We had two each and we’d split them across the stage. WS: That was the Epiphone Rivoli bass you had once you switched over? CD: That bass went from Paul to Jimmy to me. Everybody’s blood was on it. I’m not sure what happened to it. When we quit some of the equipment got stuck with Zeppelin. But John Paul Jones played a (Fender) jazz bass. Don’t know where ours went to. WS: Besides a fuzz box, what else were Jeff and Jimmy using on their guitars? JM: Jeff would have used a sustain pedal on "Shapes." I’m not sure if he had a volume pedal. He would have used the volume knob on the guitar to swell the volume up and down with his little finger. WS: In the studio, Jimmy of course used an acoustic on "White Summer." But when you played it live, did he use a Danelectro on that? JM: Probably. He’d swap guitars because of that special tuning. WS: Yeah, D-A-D-G-A-D. JM: That’s the one. He wouldn’t tune his Telecaster down, so he’d swap guitars. WS: Do you remember the first time he brought the violin bow in to use on a guitar? What did you think? JM: Oh, dear. He didn’t do it with Jeff. But I can’t remember when he did start. It was a good idea because it was another sound. It wouldn’t have been with Jeff. Without Jeff he felt like he could do a bit more, have a bit more space to establish his identity. WS: In retrospect, how do you feel about the LITTLE GAMES album now? JM: It’s not as good as ROGER THE ENGINEER. Some of it’s quite good. It’s interesting in a weird way. Now and then I hear it and I say, "That’s actually quite good." It’s weird. A bit hodge-podge really. WS: Do you have any favorite cuts off it? JM: (starts laughing) "I Remember The Night." It came up during those sessions, though it wasn’t released until years later. Mickie Most said, "Oh, we don’t want to do a silly song." It was left off the album. It’s quite funny they put it on later. It’s got John Paul Jones on piano and Jimmy Page played on it as well. WS: I can’t imagine Zeppelin doing it! JM: (laughs) No! WS: Any others? JM: I think "Drinking Muddy Water" was a good song. I liked doing it live. WS: You’d do "Smile On Me" live, too, wouldn’t you? JM: Yeah, that was good. "Glimpses" was good live, too. We’d do that freaky violin bow and the incense. WS: Would that go over as well in Britain as in the States? JM: No, it wouldn’t have been quite the same. We played some freaky gigs in England, but that would have been in the cities. In the small towns they would have wanted to hear our hits. We’d have to be in the right sort of club to play the trippy arrangements. WS: What were some of your favorite places to play at  that time? JM: The Marquee for sure. And the Roundhouse maybe. I can’t remember. They had light shows. I saw The Doors and The Airplane there. WS: Is the Anderson Theatre (ed. note: released as the star-crossed LIVE YARDBIRDS! FEATURING JIMMY PAGE) show fairly representative of the band at the time? JM: Pretty well, yeah. I don’t know if it’s the best show we did on that tour. But it’s good. The usual thing is that they made such a big thing out of recording the show that we got a little nervous and that seized it up a bit. Doesn’t sound too bad now. WS: Chris, how do you feel about the Anderson show? CD: Now as a historical piece, with the arrangements and the excitement, I think it’s a valid piece. At the time, you could argue that the recording could have been a lot better. But in retrospect, with the arrangements going on, it was a surprise when I heard it again recently. It’s very exciting. It’s very interesting. WS: ROGER gets the acclaim, but as far as dynamics go, LIVE YARDBIRDS! FEATURING JIMMY PAGE is my favorite album you guys did. CD: Is it? (surprised) WS: It’s a loud and brutal album. Very dark and moody. CD: I think you’re right really, Will. God knows what all the realities are behind that particular album, but it’s a wonderful piece of the band at the time and where we were taking things. Personally, as a piece of musical history it’s very important. You can feel the energy with the Anderson show. When I got my hands on the bass (laughs) there was so much energy. It’s ragged here and there, but hell, listen to Jimi Hendrix sometimes. It could have been a better performance and it could have been a worse performance. But in terms of innovativeness and sheer energy it was good. WS: What was your role in arranging and expanding the Jake Holmes song "Dazed and Confused" (ed. note: originally on Holmes' LP THE ABOVE GROUND SOUND OF JAKE HOLMES, 1967; the Yardbirds’ version is on the Anderson Theatre recording)? JM: We played with Jake Holmes in New York and I was struck by the atmosphere of "Dazed and Confused." I went down to Greenwich Village and bought his album and we decided to do a version. We worked it out together with Jimmy contributing the guitar riffs in the middle. Don’t you think he’s the riff-master? WS: Are you happy with the material on CUMULAR LIMIT, especially the songs from the last studio session? JM: The funny thing about that later stuff is it seems to get better. As time goes by it seems to sound better. At the time it sounded a bit lame compared to ROGER. It’s not as bad as we always thought. WS: Who were your biggest rivals in Britain at this time? JM: The Stones weren’t really rivals. They were too big. The Pretty Things, The Animals and The Moody Blues. WS: Would you try to blow any of these other bands off stage? JM: Yeah, we were very competitive. Oh, yeah and The Kinks. We toured with them in ’66. Dave Davies and Mick Avory got into a fight on stage. Dave kicked over Mick’s crash cymbal. And then he picked up the stand and bashed it over Dave’s head. Then Mick disappeared. Dave fell, his head was bleeding. They pulled the curtain. That was in Cardiff. They pulled the curtain and we had to go back on because The Kinks couldn’t play anymore. Mick Avory ran off.